BULKING UP.

A forum for all fans of the Owen Sound Attack of the Ontario Hockey League.

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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby stevey on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:24 am

I would love to see an upgrade between the pipes but as alluded to earlier who is available now. I don't actually see DiPietro being moved our chance for that may have passed.Another Quality d would be ok but not nessecary. I am going to make a statement that kills me because I am a HUGE HUGE Jacob Friend fan, but IMHO being Captain may be to much I feel he is trying to do to much and to hard.I think it would be better if he just went out and does what he does best.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby attackisback on Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:28 am

hes plus 10 but has been the worst looking D out there this year, and now we have groulx and szupula fighting when more than likely it should be and has been him being the sheriff on the ice.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby hockeyfan99 on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:10 am

With different results in the after 65 minute skills competitions this team could be 8-1 and 1st in the division. I think all players/coaches/fans/beat writers can say that this team has things to work on, but what team doesn't? It is not time to make a panic trade in October. I am sure if Degray could find a better tender than what he has he would do it, but I just don't see one out there available right now. I feel with more tight zone exits and less penalties they can take the next step required to be the elite team.

This could be the most talented, balanced team we have ever had in Owen Sound. As fans, lets sit back and enjoy it and put faith in the braintrust that brought us this great team. No need to panic on October 20th.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby CHL Watcher on Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:45 am

I disagree, Bearstrike.

Kitchener fans say that because they haven't seen evidence.

There were a couple of eastern teams that said the same last year. They were also wrong.

The Attack have lost two talent shows after a pair of hockey games (shameful display) and a stinker in Kitchener. Thus Kitchener thinks they have a shot and the Attack aren't that good. So, Kitchener spends on trades accordingly.

It's not smart. (Ceci/Blandisi)

Look at the facts, Bearstrike.

They have one apparent weakness....and you're right that it is unlikely to improve, given history. The issue is this: Can you name the team with a better goaltender that wants to trade him?

Montreal got stupid with McNiven and may yet ruin his career and that's that. Owen Sound is going to have to deal with that. I feel bad for him.

It's still so early that 10 teams or more have a shot at the title (or so they think). Add to that Windsor (who with Dipietro don't really need a major junior team), Mississauga, who still thinks they're going somewhere, Sudbury, who are in perpetual dreamland, Barrie, who were not supposed to be out of the gate quite like they have, London, who are still "going for it" and a number of other teams in denial, and you have 17-18 teams that are either in denial or doing way better than expected. It shuts the door on goaltending trades.

Like I said, with the schedule as it is, Owen Sound will be unable to make any statements until well into the year and will continue to look "not as good". I have news for Ranger fans....The Attack look much better than the Rangers. Not even close. Ranger fans should look at the winning percentage and goal differentials per game rather than the standings. If it doesn't hurt their wee brains too much it will be informative.

I know it hurts to see your team play badly while sitting with Ranger fans, but don't buy into it. The Rangers look bad a lot more often.

But there are no goaltenders for sale.

Oh, and Erie made it with a goalie who is of the same skill level (look at Timpano's before and after stats). I don't recommend the Attack do that....but it is possible.

As for the rookie.....we don't know what he can do because the coach won't let him play.

The Attack went from bottom of the league penalty minutes to top of the league penalty minutes and downgraded their goaltender. I would fix now what I can fix now. Penalty minutes.....and I would keep my eye out for that goalie.

The team is on pace for a record year in offense and points. It won't get any worse unless someone panics. Where would the Attack be if they had played an extra 2 or 3 games like most other teams? They would be a few points ahead of the Rangers, most likely.

Tell your Ranger buddies that their big win better be memorable....because it's going to look like a speed bump on the Attack road with the passage of time.

Now, if they were Sarnia fans I would be a little less harsh. At least that team has been consistently excellent so far this season.

On a side note: Owen Sound had almost as much high end talent on the sidelines last game as Kitchener possesses in total.

pausing rant

up to at least 12 cents
Last edited by CHL Watcher on Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby CHL Watcher on Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:48 am

Over on HF Boards I was reading a post put up by scoresfromcentre.
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/w ... e.2396249/


He/she summed up the situation for "contenders" numbers. No team with less than 97 points or a +70 goal differential has ever been a real contender for an OHL title.

Now let's look at Kitchener and Owen Sound this season and extrapolate the numbers.

Kitchener is on pace for 92-93 points and a +37. That is not a contender at this point in time, but things can and do change....so there is hope for them....they're not that far away.

Owen Sound is on pace for 105-106 points and a +113. That's a real contender by anyone's standard. Things can change and often do, but I think most OS fans would agree that cutting a couple of penalties out of each game won't hurt the situation.

Kitchener fans don't think the Attack are that good? Hopefully they're as good as they look so far.....because it would be the best they have ever been.

People say the same thing about the Knights every year when they don't really have a hope of beating the Knights in a series......so just be happy that the tables have turned. We're spoiled rotten.

The facts as they stand say OS is the league's second best team to date....and the most dominant team ever to dress in OS. Maybe your/their standards are a little high. Were they to aim for 120 points? 400 goals? It's still possible. 8)

They need to get back to the McGill level of discipline....in both penalties and defensive responsibility. Goals are great, but I hate 12-6 games when it comes down to it. You don't win when you allow your goaltender to fend for himself while you pad people's stats. Watch the boys looking around for Campbell or Sushko or anyone who doesn't yet have a goal or may want a record. That level of D is shameful. Until they act like the goaltender's stats mean something to them they aren't yet a full team.

I can just imagine all the high fives going around the dressing room while Bowman looked on.....and hopefully Gill had a talk with them.

These are the issues as I see them right now. Goaltending is out of Gill's hands for now.....so deal with what can be dealt with. Tighten it up. Take pride in your discipline, boys.

ex-military <<<<
Play like a unit. Teamwork is more than the sum of the parts. Any lack of teamwork just weakens the unit. You succeed together. Nobody left behind.

Well....they left the defense behind that game....as soon as they realised they could score at will. That means they left the goalie behind. Sure there weren't that many shots....but they all count.....and the penalties are getting ridiculous.

McGill would have benched Szypula and Groulx. Gill hasn't taken any obvious action to address it. That doesn't mean he hasn't....it's just not obvious. Smart players are always the best players. Take the slash or the cross check or the stick up high and move on......or put your team in a hole and prove you're a liability.

I honestly believe all of this panic is the result of expectations that are out of whack with reality. As Millpond points out on HFBoards when someone suggests they haven't replaced all that firepower from last year...
The Attack had 5 point per game players last year. They currently have 8. Sarnia has 6. The average is 3.

They're on pace for 106 points and a +113......with an abysmal record (for them) of penalty minutes. They had 21 points after 21 games last year. They're on pace for 33 this year.

Deal with what's real. McNiven isn't here, so wins and losses will look a little different....but the results, so far are actually better than last year.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby Sounder76 on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:36 am

Call me crazy but I honestly believe at the end of the season London will be higher in the standings than Kitchener. The addition of Raaymakers and they will get Mete back in a week or two only strengthens this already potent team. Sure they are 2-8-1, but this is 1/6th of the way into the season. Anyone recall last season and our Bayshore Boys? I can see London reeling off something like that once they're back in full force. Kitchener is a good team, that's it. If they want to believe they're elite, let them. We know how good the Attack is, we watch them every night. Trust me when I say Kitchener fans do not. I live in Waterloo and they're very Rangers-centric.

If we stay the course and add one or two pieces in December, we will be just fine and register 100 points. This is the best team we have had ever I believe. Let's see how things are in a month.....
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby Pitou on Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:03 am

In a season with realistic expectations of making some noise, it is not ideal to have a goalie who historically has been just okay, but it is further aggravated by having that goalie also eat up an OA position. In other words, in the Attack's 2011 championship season, which one of Mignardi, Stanisz or Heelis do you want to give up in favour of an average sub .900 SP goalie? Trying to ride a rookie goaltender to a championship is an unlikely formula for success. I know each season and roster is different but the margin of victory can be slim and a strong full core of OA veterans can be the difference. You can also acquire a key veteran OA piece at or near the deadline without breaking the bank.

Unfortunately without a miracle return of NcNiven, the Attack will need to expend significant resources for a proven tender. Pieces that could be used for adding upgrades or depth in other areas. Here's hoping Dale has a rabbit somewhere in his hat, because tonight's Erie game can't happen in a short playoff series.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby Pitou on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:00 am

PL8R G8R wrote:Bear Strike............Other than DiPietro, Who else out there would help us now that Raymakers is in London?

It's a bit early for a lot of "bubble" teams to throw in the towel and tough to know who may become available. I concede that identifying a concern is easier than identifying a solution. One hypothetical possibility is Jeremy Helvig from Kingston. It's based on assumptions but Helvig is an NHL drafted, good sized goalie with decent numbers, not always with a strong roster. KIngston's heir apparent Peccia?? has decent numbers and might be able to carry their load as starter. I believe Helvig is also an OA which takes a spot, which is a bit of a negative but also may make him a bit more affordable. I can live with an OA goalie who can be a difference maker. It would be nice if a swap for Bowman plus a draft pick or two could get that done. That way Bowman is not left without playing options.

As mentioned , McNiven would be the dream scenario. Not sure how he would feel about it. Hopefully he would be motivated to come and complete some unfinished business via a championship.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby BearStrike on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:54 pm

Sending from mobile device so take that In mind

Watcher- this isn't over estimating our worth. I don't buy it.

1) Mcniven - Loss is real. But DD had all summer long to figure it out. Kitchener beat us to QMHL Bouchard. London beat us to Raymaker. DD chose an OA heading to his 4th team in 5 years sporting a .880 SP. to replace McNiven. During our playoff run last year enough posters on here thought our chances were better this year.

Raymaker - London goes 1-8-1 with out an OHL Ready goaltender. Raymaker joins the team and now they go 2-0 with the same defence and systems in front of him.

Bouchard - Rangers start off 1-4-1 with real trouble in net. Grab Bouchard and since then the Rangers are 6-1 out of last 7 games they play. Same team play in front of him.

I am pretty confident we need an OHL ready goaltender, as well as other fans taking notice of it. We have not won well all year or with any consistency.

Note: So DD trades for an 18 yr old goalie that has shown us WAY more than what we have seen this year and flips him for a pretty good dman??? Perplexing I say. Why? I get we had 2 needs here but goaltending trumps dmen right?

2) I get drafting as well as coaches are never a sure thing. But come on. What has Gill done as a Head Coach in any league in the last 6 years that would make you hire him in 2017 as the OHL Owen Sound Attack coach? With both McGill and Reeds they both coached very successful programs in the win loss columns. They were proven thus warrented their hirings.

We are undisciplined and loose. The fact that Gill plays our captain like our captain last year tells me Something ain't right. Do not get me wrong. I take no issue with Friend and his letter. He is a lot of things to this team. And some things he is not. I look over and watch him and I get no confidence in his ability to be a difference maker.

3) Palmu - Loss is big cause without him we look like a one line team. But we had enough skill last year on 3 lines with zip on the 4th so what gives? Ryan McGill and his proven systems gives.

This team just doesn't look right IMO. It's messy and screams of first round exit.

Strike
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby Pitou on Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:25 am

I'm okay with the quick flip of Propp, provided there is a plan down the not-too-distance road for a goaltender. Aside from a very small sample size of decent numbers this year, Propp's numbers are not indicative of a guaranteed OHL ready goalie, especially with hopes of a deep playoff run. I admit that I don't know much about Brady Lyle but his addition and eventual return of Bourque has to help. The back end does need to collectively get their act in order.

With that said, I think a defence corps is able to play a lot looser with confidence in their goaltender. It's tough knowing that most defensive miscues or decent scoring chances against will end up in the back of your net. Not pushing any panic buttons yet, but I'm not seeing a Top 10 OHL team out there right now.

BTW, anyone know the prognosis of Bourque?
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby cubby01 on Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:19 am

Flashbacks to 06-07. Team was hyped as a strong contender with many top picks. Bobby Ryan's last year and Trevor Lewis here to be his wingman. The team had an iffy regular season, tried to bring in a ringer goalie and lost in the first round. Are we seeing the same this year or can this team get it together? From what I have seen, the team is not playing anything like last year's edition. The flow out of the defensive end is not there, partly because of the goalie change and something different about the system. Maybe DD can find the tweeks need to turn this around, but hopefully not at the expense of the future. Last week everyone here was saying go for it. Wonder if this sentiment has changed after the weekend.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby stevey on Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:55 am

It has been more times than 06-07.Everytime I can remember even back in Plater days when the experts pick us high we suck. we even turned a non playoff year according to the experts ,into an OHL Championship. I actually said that year I would never call for a Coaches firing and I won't now, but pretty much same team no Ryan McGill coincidence? I don't have the answers but hoping those that are paid to have them come up with them soon.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby CHL Watcher on Tue Oct 24, 2017 2:15 pm

The only way that goalie flip makes any sense is if Montreal has winked and nodded at DD. If that's the case you're not going to hear about it. If that is not the case there has to be something else in the works.

Lyle is a definite upgrade, but one that only happens if Propp is not the trade DD wants in goal. There must be another aspect to this exchange. Bowman is not going to be good enough.

Games played and time are the things to keep an eye on in this situation.

Burning a contract year, while reducing the player's value and crushing his spirit were probably not the intended result that Montreal had in mind. I don't know why Montreal did what they did, but it was epic stupidity unless he was to be coming back all along....which might have been a good idea in the beginning...and could turn out okay yet...so I'm going with what seems most obvious. Who is that blind? Nobody. So I'm not writing him off yet.....particularly in light of the Bowman trade, the early season reactions, and the Lyle deal. Montreal/Laval will send him back soon. My guess is they were hoping he would do well in Brampton for a maximum number of games, thus increasing his value, then sending him back for a Memorial Cup run, thus increasing it again. This would put Montreal in a very envious position when executing a trade. Half of that scenario can still happen. McNiven might be the last to know about it. He'll be here within a few weeks.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby cubby01 on Tue Oct 24, 2017 3:15 pm

I really hope that you are right Watcher. What a lift that would give the team. Hopefully Michael would see this as a good move and pick up where he left off last year. Fingers and toes are crossed.
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Re: BULKING UP.

Postby CHL Watcher on Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:28 pm

It's completely speculative, but I cannot believe Montreal would remove a goaltender from what would have been the #1 junior team on the planet. They were projected #2 even without him. It really only makes sense if he returns.

There is also a case for Tyler Parsons' return.

If neither is sent back I think it's a bit of a loss all around and for all concerned. That's why I'm speculating that things may not be as they seem.

I want to bring up another issue here that is off topic regarding the trades or McNiven...but on the topic of the thread...

The league should not have limits on imports set to two nor disallowed goaltenders from the mix. Maintenance of the quality and quantity of existing teams and expanding league franchise numbers depends very much on expanding import numbers.

Expand the number of teams and lower the cost of travel for all of them. Ensure future markets. Deter potential rival leagues from entering those markets. Allow more imports to curb ways used to get around the rules and to maintain the quality of the league through expansion.

I believe it would be good for the league to move to four OAs and four imports and allow goaltenders from anywhere...for the following reasons: More mid-caliber players and high calibre players available strengthens the league, lessons the chance of trade movement, allows even mediocre teams to see a cycle work for them a little more. It gives a bit more time to those who take a little more time to get ready for the next level. It lowers the cost, risk, and value of imports. It maintains the level of competitiveness (or improves it) even through expansion. Fans always like a better product. Expand the import draft to 5 or 6 rounds and make them compete for their spots.

The main argument against these things are that they hinder Canadian or American kids from getting through the pipeline or developing to their full potential. Fair enough...but expansion will allow for more and I can't imagine any of the CHL's three leagues getting any bigger without an influx of players. More teams reduces the cost of operation for all teams....and as long as it's done carefully, it can even raise the value of all franchises, which might seem a bit counter-intuitive.

Every year teams try to "Bulk up". It's disruptive to everyone involved and it costs a fortune in picks and prospects. The movement might benefit the player by moving him to a better place....or it might not. Either way you're moving teenagers around. Never a great idea if you can help it. More good players reduces this need.

As the QMJHL got better over the last 20-25 years the massive moves of the past have greatly diminished. You need talent for that to happen.....more than just 5-10 interesting players when trade time comes around...creating panic moves that can hinder a team's development for years to come... You need 30-40 viable trade prospects at crunch time to keep trade deadline moves from getting out of hand. You can only spread the talent so thin before it becomes a situation where the team that wins the championship can only do so if they happen to have a particular player.

Right now everyone knows that if Dipietro goes to a true contender it's pretty much over for the rest. If Parsons returns to the Knights to join JR it's going to give them huge pull at the deadline...or put them right in the mix for a championship. If McNiven returns to mentor Guzda then OS is suddenly very, very much in the lead.

How can it be a good thing when "bulking up" is this precarious?

There are maybe 8 or 9 real good goaltenders in the OHL and they play on 8 or 9 of the better teams (at least in their time with that team). They all have a good shot at the playoffs. Coincidence? The league does not have enough quality starters....and that fact applies to all three of the CHL's leagues. If Dale DeGray is satisfied with Bowman's work so far....then there is a reason. He aint no dummy.
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